Dirt Road Revival: A young politician works to rebuild rural politics by tackling polarization through conversation | Maine Senator Chloe Maxmin

This episode is sponsored by New Hampshire’s Monadnock Region, home of Keene Pride week; the Monadnock Arts Open Studio Tour and the Radically Rural Summit. Natural beauty and bustling downtowns await, just two hours from Boston. Every Urban Exodus begins with an Urban Escape, and yours is Within Thriving Distance. Visit MonadnockNH.com today.

I’m excited to invite you to my conversation with State Senator Chloe Maxmin. At 28, Chloe Maxmin is the youngest woman ever to serve in the Maine State Senate. She was elected in 2020, after unseating a two-term Republican incumbent. In 2018, Chloe served in the Maine House of Representatives, after beating a Republican incumbent in her traditionally conservative leaning rural district. Chloe ran on a 100% positive campaign, choosing to reject political partisanship and toxic attacks on her opponent. She went on an epic door-to-door campaign, knocking on tens of thousands of doors in her district, committed to reaching her voters directly. 

Chloe grew up on her family’s farm in Nobleboro, Maine. From a young age, she has been a community organizer and dedicated climate activist. While attending Harvard, Chloe co-founded Divest Harvard, a campaign calling on Harvard University to divest from fossil fuels. The campaign drew hundreds of thousands of supporters and eventually pressured the university to divest the entirety of their multi-billion dollar endowment from fossil fuel stocks.

Chloe is the recipient of the Gloria Barron Prize for Young Heroes and the Brower Youth Award. She was also named a “Green Hero” by Rolling Stone. Her work has been recognized by the Maine Women’s Fund, Washington Post, Rolling Stone, Real Time with Bill Maher, CNN, MPBN and more. This year, Chloe wrote and published Dirt Road Revival, along with her campaign manager, a how-to guide on rebuilding rural politics, and tackling political polarization from the ground up.

This is a story about radical empathy, tenacity, and the power of humility in connecting with others.

Transcript

Alissa Hessler: 0:00

This episode is sponsored by New Hampshire's Monadnock region, home of keen Pride Week, the monad knock arts open studio tour and the radically rural Summit, where today's guest Chloe maximun was the keynote speaker in 2022. Natural beauty and bustling downtown's await located just a two hour drive from Boston. Every urban Exodus begins with an urban escape. And yours is within thriving distance. Visit monad NOC n h.com. Today, that's mo N. Ad NOCKN h.com.

Chloe Maxmin: 0:40

We're really used to thinking about politics as something that's super divisive and nasty. And also that's pretty far removed from our lives, like we mostly talk about who's running for governor or who's running for president. But there are local races, you know, with people who live right down the road from you. And these races come down to dozens of boats, like not even hundreds, just dozens, and that is where your vote matters. And when we kind of talk about how much power local politics has, it really makes every vote so so important.

Alissa Hessler: 1:18

Have you ever dreamed of making a radical shift? What does it take to build a more intentional life? What is gained from reconnecting with yourself with community and with the natural world? I'm Alissa Hessler. I've spent the last decade meeting with people all over the world who have made remarkable transitions in their lives. How do they do it? What did they sacrifice? What have they learned? Stepping away from convention isn't easy. But we all have the power to reclaim the things that we've lost, to slow down to change course, to create the life we want for ourselves and for future generations. The urban Exodus podcast shares, practical advice, and inspirational words to embolden and guide you on your own journey. These are the stories of those brave enough to venture down the road less traveled. This is the urban Exodus. Urban Exodus is community supported programming, please consider sponsoring an episode or making a contribution so we can keep these conversations going. The easiest way to contribute is to click the support button on the top of urban exodus.com. You can also become a member of the urban Exodus community to peruse our archives of hundreds of photos, stories and interviews of people who live city life, or subscribe to Apple podcasts premium to have access to bonus episodes, or rapid fire interviews with guests and our new mini podcast ditch the city where I answer listeners questions and offer practical advice on a whole myriad of topics. If you have a question for an upcoming episode that you'd like us to consider, please send us a DM on Instagram, or through our contact us page. Thank you for helping me continue to do this work. I couldn't do it without all of you. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts or Spotify, or whatever service you listen on. And please recommend urban access to your friends. I'm excited to invite you to my conversation with Chloe maximum at 28. Chloe is the youngest woman to ever serve in the Maine State Senate. She was elected in 2020. After unseating a two term Republican incumbent in 2008. Chloe served in the main house of representatives after beating a Republican incumbent in her traditionally conservative leaning rural district. Chloe ran on 100% positive campaign. She chose to reject political partisanship and toxic attacks on her opponent. She went on an epic door to door campaign, knocking on 10s of 1000s of doors in her district, committed to reaching her voters directly. Chloe grew up on her family's farm in noble borough, Maine. And from a young age, she has been a community organizer and dedicated climate activist. While attending Harvard, Chloe co founded divest Harvard, a campaign calling on Harvard University to divest from fossil fuels. The campaign drew hundreds of 1000s of supporters, and eventually pressured the university to divest the entirety of their multibillion dollar endowment from fossil fuel stocks. Chloe is the recipient of the Gloria Baron prize for young heroes. The Brower Youth Award, she was named a green hero by Rolling Stone and her work has been recognized by the main Women's Fund, The Washington Post, Real Time with Bill Mayer, CNN, MPB, and and so much more. This year, Chloe wrote and published dirt road revival, along with her campaign manager. It's a how to guide on how to rebuild rural politics by tackling political polarization from the ground up. This is a story about radical empathy, tenacity, and the power of humility, and connecting with others. I've just been in awe of what you've been able to do in Maine, you are a woman of passion, and a woman that doesn't back down from things. And I really appreciate all the work that you've been doing for climate justice since you were young. So first off, I would love if you would just introduce yourself, share a little bit of your personal backstory, and kind of the paths that you've taken that have led you to where you are now.

Unknown: 6:06

Yeah, thank you so much for, for having me. It's so great to chat with you, just for hyper clarity. But I was the youngest woman in the house while I was serving with their younger people than I who have been elected. And I was the youngest woman to serve in the State Senate. But there's also some other awesome young folks. And I just want them to, to say that there are lots of great young folks in the Maine legislature. I grew up in a small town here in Maine called noble burrow. And I've just always really loved my my hometown, and I just, I love Maine in general, it's where I've always felt the happiest and where I've always wanted to build my life. And you know, because it's what I love so much. I also am very sensitive to what threatens my home and this this beautiful state of ours. And as I, as I grew up, I began to kind of see those forces, the biggest one being the climate crisis, and how that that is impacting and will impact me and in our communities and our way of life and our economy. I've done a lot of grassroots organizing work since I was younger, mainly around climate justice stuff. But the more that I did that work, I I kind of saw two things. One was the immense power of social movements and how vitally important they are in a democracy. But the second is that often, electoral politics and social movements there, they can be a bit far apart. And they don't often overlap, because they're just two really different models of change making. But we need effective electoral politics and effective people in office to achieve all of the goals that social movements are calling for. And so that was one of the reasons why I moved back to my hometown I home House District and Senate District, both of which voted for Trump in 2016, to really kind of dig into that intersection of movement, politics and electoral politics, really trying to understand what's happening in rural America and why it's trending. So read, and see if there's a way to turn it around, at least in our very small corner of the country.

Alissa Hessler: 8:02

I am someone who has traveled all over rural parts of the United States and have seen firsthand the division and the identity politics that's really kind of sweeping the nation now. It's like join a team, and people are at odds with one another. And so I really appreciate your campaigning and this book that you've written on what that campaign experience was like for you. Because I do see that there's a real disconnect between, you know, I think a lot of people have the exact same values, but we're just kind of putting our hat on things and yelling at each other and not listening. So let's get back to kind of the beginning of your story. You grew up in rural Maine, and you love to attend Harvard and Boston. I wonder what that transition was like for you? And when did you start noticing and thinking about the urban and rural divide, and its impact on government.

Unknown: 8:58

I just remember those early days being really, really difficult. I had taken some time off between college and high school and I lived in, in my first city in in that time. And so, so I kind of felt like a little bit more prepared for urban living. But one of my earliest memories of those days was just feeling really alienated. And like, you know, I grew up on a farm and like throwing hay bales and stuff, and I would like, people would ask me to like lift stuff for them be like, oh, you know, like, Oh, you're so strong. I'm just like, I don't think I'm that strong and just like, do the farm work every day. And just feeling like there was like a really different language that I had to get used to in an urban space. And I also kind of felt like, this subliminal kind of disdain for like conservative folks or like, you know, folks who use guns or folks to go hunting. You know, that's like my family and who I grew up with and who raised me, but it was my first year at Harvard when I met Kenyan who was the campaign manager for both of my campaigns and we co wrote our book It Rode revival together. And he's from very rural North Carolina. And I like all my best friends I met my first year, and almost all of them are from rural spaces. There's like very few of us at Harvard. But we found each other immediately. And Kenyon and I were working on creating a replica of the Keystone XL Pipeline on campus for like a little protest demonstration. And we were trying to find some gravel to mimic tar sands. And so we called around to all of these gravel pits and found someplace that would let us just scoop up a five gallon bucket, bucket of gravel, we got on the public bus, and neither of us had ever ridden on a public bus before and we knew what our stop was called. But we had no idea that you had to click, you know, press the button to get the bus to stop at this particular juncture. And so we just went whizzing right by the stop, and we both looked at each other be like, why did why did we stop? What did we do? And so we ended up going many stocks past and then getting off and having to run all the way back, just because neither of us had ever, never been on a public bus before.

Alissa Hessler: 11:03

I would love if you would talk about your work with the divest Harvard movement that you spearheaded with several others. I wondered how you and your kind of team came up with the idea, and and how long it took for real change to happen.

Unknown: 11:22

Yeah, so after my first year at Harvard, I came back to Maine for the summer. And there was a fossil fuel infrastructure project that was being proposed across New England that was basically pumping tar sands across Canada, and then down through this old defunct pipeline that crosses through New England and Maine and the tar sands would be exported from Maine. You know, I say all of the story with like, the deep acknowledgement, that means is not a frontline community. When it comes to fossil fuel infrastructure where there's no extraction here, there's no refinement here. There's a lot of like, transportation infrastructure. But as far as Maine goes, it's like pretty privileged in terms of the fossil fuel infrastructure that's here. But we were all really worried about this pipeline, because tar sands is really viscous, like sandpaper, and this pipeline was really, really old, built in the 1960s. And it was it the pipeline runs within a few 100 yards of the drinking water source for 20% of its population. And so it just became like a really big thing that we were all organizing around. And the more that I worked on that project, I found out some fun facts, one of which is that the pipeline company is 76%, owned by Exxon Mobil. You know, looking back, I think it was naivete just growing up in like a pretty sheltered small community. But I didn't know that these large corporations that you hear on the news, were actually trying to influence what was happening in my in my home state and threatening, threatening some really important shared resources. So I went back to Harvard that fall. And it was, it was at the same time that fossil fuel divestment was kind of gaining steam across the country. BILL MCKIBBEN had written his, his huge piece in Rolling Stone that kind of, you know, alluded to fossil fuel divestment becoming a new tactic to bring down the fossil fuel industry. And so we at in the Boston area, there was a really awesome collective of student organizers at all of the campuses and in in the Boston and greater Boston area. And so we all banded together, and each of us started divest fossil fuel divestment campaigns at our schools to just kind of see how it went and be able to support each other and kind of give feedback to the national networks about did it gain traction with with students, you know, how did it work? And so I was part of the small team that started the divest Harvard movement. We had our first meeting in 2012, with 10 people in a room and we showed a little documentary about, you know, the climate crisis. And, you know, it's pretty, pretty benign. But within three years, we had over 70,000 people who had signed on to our campaign, and we were, we were reading marches and protests and so this obedience actions that we're drawing hundreds of people, you know, I graduated a few years afterwards, but the students have carried all the divest harbored mantle and been pushing really, really hard. And finally, last September, nine years later, Harvard finally did divest, which is too late in my mind, but you know, I guess Better late than never in this case.

Alissa Hessler: 14:22

But they have like a multibillion dollar endowment, that's a big chunk. And in nine years, I mean, I feel like real change takes a long time. I think that's something that kind of scares people and it like maybe dissuades them from getting involved in grassroots organizing, or maybe they just feel overwhelmed at the enormity of societal and environmental problems that we are facing right now. What advice would you give to people who want to see change happen, they want to be part of that change, but maybe they're feeling just completely overwhelmed and they don't know where to go?

Unknown: 15:00

Start. Yeah, that that feeling of being overwhelmed is something that I've definitely struggled with and I think is really pervasive, especially when we're talking about political change or climate change, like these issues that are so multifaceted and intersectional, there's not one, one thing that you can do. I think the way that I look at it is we need all forms of engagement. So I sometimes like I've certainly felt kind of when you're in progressive spaces, there can be some judgment sometimes, like, Oh, why aren't you risking arrest? Or why are you knocking on doors, and I think just finding, finding the space that you feel most effective and comfortable in and pushing that hard, and because everyone's gonna have a different space, we need all of those to come together. I think community is so important as well, like when you're organizing their ebbs and flows, and like you said, these, these campaigns are going to take years, if not decades, and these problems that we're facing are really deep. And I think for me, the way that I've been able to sustain thinking about these issues every day is because I got my best friends by my side, and we can talk about it, celebrate and mourn, and we're in it together. And that's a more that's a more consistent bloodline than just, you know, like the ebbs and flows of volunteer engagement, or, you know, all kind of the data that usually dominates these conversations. I also

Alissa Hessler: 16:27

feel like burnout is such a piece of organizing and trying to work towards change. How have you recognized burnout at periods of time in your life? And what do you do to prevent burnout?

Unknown: 16:42

That's such a question. I feel like there are people out there who can answer this, it gives much better advice than I can't, because I don't feel like I do this very well, like I go hard. And then I get burned out. And then I retreat. But like, I burned myself out. So it takes me like years to recover from whatever I've done to myself, you know, in general, I really just try and like I'm in a bit of a burnout stage right now. And I just have had a really hard time with Zoom calls. And so I'm also farming this season with my partner, we get like this really beautiful farming situation. And so I do all of my calls on the phone while I'm out in the fields, and just like finding little ways to kind of put up my put up some boundaries, some healthy boundaries, not do something that they know, is going to make me unhappy and just kind of find creative ways around it. So that's kind of how I deal with it. I'm really bad at taking time off. I can't even remember the last day I didn't do any work. Like I don't really schedule vacations. I've there's so much that I don't do that I should do but you know, I just try and make make it feel sustainable.

Alissa Hessler: 17:45

I feel very similar to get it out maybe better than I but that is a really tricky part about you know, going hard and pushing yourself into things that you're passionate about, because it's hard to get off of that hamster wheel and just like, take a breath and a breather when you need to. Yeah, it's hard. You know, let's walk through your congressional and Senate races. What did you learn? You did a lot of door to door knocking that was really your campaign strategy. What did you learn from the conversations with people that you had in your community? And how have those conversations influenced your work?

Unknown: 18:27

My first race was in 2018. For State House District district Ada, it's since then the district did, unfortunately. But the district hadn't been won by a Democrat since it was previously redistricted. And the district went Republican by 16 points, such as a pretty, pretty hefty margin. And then in 2020, I ran for the Senate District, which was just a little bit to the right, but we were running against the Senate Minority Leader. So he was the highest ranking Republican in the state, and he was the incumbent. So I just give that context because both times to to win or even have a shot at winning, we had to talk with folks who were Republicans and independents. You know, we had to expand far beyond just talking to folks who think like us to have a shot. And, you know, I remember in 2018, it was set up in an interesting way, because I had a primary first and so my first experience door knocking for myself, was just talking to Democrats. And that was like, pretty easy. You know, it was like kind of a competition for who could be the most progressive. And it was, you know, in retrospect, it was just fine. In the moment, it was tough. But now it's like that was a cakewalk. And then when I started talking to and then I won the primary, and then we started talking to Republicans and independents, and I only I didn't talk to any Democrats after the primary. I only talked to these to conservative folks. And you know, it was just kind of eye opening to me how many people had never been contacted by a Democratic campaign or canvas. They're in their entire voting history, or so many of them haven't been contacted since Obama ran for office, kind of like the last great rural organizing campaign. You know, so I was talking with these folks who we've kind of like, written off, more or less. And instead of kind of finding a reason to write people off, I actually found so much common ground with folks, you know, just having amazing conversations that were just really eye opening and where I learned so much about myself and so much about where other folks were coming from. And even if they didn't vote for me, even if we agreed to disagree, there was so much to connect on, you know, and it was like, the people would put Trump signs next to their Chloe signs. And it was, I mean, it was just kind of humbling to, to realize that like, oh, wow, I've, even in my own mind, I've been like, why someone voted for Trump, but then you go talk to them, and you hear their reasons. And you're like, like, I really understand that, like, I have a lot of empathy for that I, I don't agree with the outcome. But I can certainly understand why people feel so disillusioned by traditional politicians and traditional rhetoric, and people feel like they have not, they've worked so hard to be able to retire and get what they've earned in this life. And so few people have that privilege these days, and folks are just searching for something new and different, like any shred of hope. And, you know, for some, for some reason, they're the people are resonating with that, and the when the right talks about these issues, and I can't blame someone for feeling that, you know, so it's like, how can we say, okay, we're sharing really similar experiences, we're sharing really similar values? Can we connect on that and form a bond on that, instead of just focusing on the fact that I'm a Democrat, you're Republican,

Alissa Hessler: 21:50

calling all small business owners, are you looking to expand your customer base beyond the reach of your local community, speak to our loyal audience of over 38,000 listeners, by sponsoring an episode of the urban Exodus podcast, for more information, visit urban exodus.com/podcast. Once you made it into office, climate change was something that you really focused on. And that's such a hot button issue that often splits the vote by party. But you were able to get bipartisan support for your green New Deal legislation. And I'd love for you to talk about that legislation, the compromises maybe the concessions that you had to make and what the process looked like to get it passed and signed into law.

Unknown: 22:40

Yeah, so when I was first elected, and all the times I've been elected all two of them. I've had a really deep commitment to only work on legislation that came from conversations that I had at the doors. And so in 2018, when I was first elected, I really wanted to work on a climate bill. But I, I really struggled because I rarely heard people talk about climate change. Like someone asked me to sponsor a fossil fuel divestment bill when I was first elected, and I, I declined, because I was like, I literally, this is not my community, and I'm trying to represent my people. So maybe there's a better sponsor for this bill. You know, but I did hear people talk a lot about, you know, like wanting good sustainable jobs and good sustainable industries in rural Maine and talk about how, you know, my, like, a shared experience of my own, which is, I would go ice fishing with my dad, and like December when I was growing up, and now you're lucky if you can get out January or February, it just ending the farms and the droughts, and just, there's just like a really different way of talking about these issues that I felt was so specific to rural working class spaces, and I wanted the climate legislation that I sponsored to focus on that. So I also wanted people to kind of like pay attention to that different way of talking about climate because I think the climate conversation can also get kind of pigeon holed and like a pretty privileged narrative that isn't really connected to the to like the daily lived impacts of what's happening. So I sponsored a bill called act to establish a green new deal for Maine. its original form was five, five different sections, you know, as always very targeted, and I worked on it a lot with the unions, the main AFL CIO, in particular, just as always meant to be targeted. But the initial thrust of the bill was to kind of create a task force that was made up of impacted communities, folks who have been displaced from their jobs because of the renewable energy transition or, you know, other economic pressures that are pushing us away from fossil fuels. So get all of these impacted voices to the table and be able to chart out what a just transition looks like for Maine. Because we don't have that plan. It doesn't it doesn't exist, you know, how do we create a new energy economy in a way that preserves people's dignity and Job Access and increases quality of life and economic sustainability? Well, What does that look like in Maine, those parts did get cut because those taskforce cost money. And we didn't want the bill to get to die because lack of funding, so the, which I would have liked to fight for funding, but that's just not how the cookie crumbles. So the bill was left off with two small but important pieces. One is a stipulation that says that any large, renewable energy projects in Maine have to hire a certain percentage of workers from a union certified apprenticeship program. So it's basically saying, like, if you want to get trained to work in this industry, you're gonna get a job in the industry and for the industry, folks, they know that they're going to have people getting trained to come into their workforce. And then the other part of the bill focused on providing support for schools that were looking to go solar, because it main, our tax structure puts almost all of the onus for school funding on property taxes, which is a super regressive way to fund our schools and really impacts low income folks and seniors. So we really didn't want any form of renewable energy to increase a property tax burden. And so we were trying to kind of get at it through that angle and make sure that there were state resources there to support folks.

Alissa Hessler: 26:13

Ice see the impacts already of climate change in Maine on some of the biggest industries in Maine. I mean, I think about the lobstering industry and how numbers of lobsters are going down. And they're starting to move north just like they did in Massachusetts, and what that looks like when there are generations of families that have always been in the same industry, and how do you think forward and make it so that there are living, thriving jobs available for people that are no longer able to do that anymore?

Unknown: 26:47

You know, I think there's often tendencies to be just like, oh, well, we'll retrain folks, but it's like, not that simple. And not that that's like, you know, it's just, it's just not that simple. And that's not always the most humane way to go about it. So, you know, this transition is coming and coming, it says it is happening. And the idea is to make sure that the folks most impacted have the most support, because we're trying to we're not trying to replicate the patterns of the fossil fuel industry and how what energy source has so disproportionately impact certain folks. And that's, we have an opportunity to do it a different way. So let's do it differently.

Alissa Hessler: 27:25

In these divided times, being a public servant opens one up not only to criticism, but also sometimes like threats, like it's a scary time to work in public office, because we're so divided. As one of the youngest lawmakers, I wondered what your experience was, like serving in the state legislature? And do you have any advice to young people considering serving in public office on ways to rise above and be rooted in the work of serving their constituents?

Unknown: 27:58

Such a good question, you know, it's, yeah, it's very tricky. Things are really vitriolic and angry right now. And it's only getting worse. You know, and I think I've certainly received my fair share of hate and nasty emails and phone calls and death threats and all that stuff. But I'm like a white sis woman and I know that there are people in the statehouse who are not white, not sis who receive even worse than worse than I do. So, you know, just let let that be known that I hold, I still hold a lot of privilege in my identity, even though I'm, I get all of this stuff. I think for me, it's definitely been a struggle because I like I'm a pretty positive person. And I work I work pretty hard in my life to not be around toxic stuff. And it's really difficult when you kind of put yourself out there to receive that you open yourself up to it, it's just part of the job. I think, I've definitely grown a much thicker skin and stuff that bothered me in the beginning does not bother me now. Like my bar is much higher, which I think is a is a good thing. But I think also it's good to know your own boundaries, like a lot of times door knocking, I might feel unsafe, or people would be really mean. And then it's like, well, how do you kind of stand up for yourself and confront that? Like, what does that look like? And maybe that just means you're not going to go down this road again, or, you know, like, you still have to make yourself feel safe, I think. I think it's an unfortunate part of the territory. And I really don't blame people for not venturing into this kind of public service because of it. So I think it's okay to like be a change maker in different ways without kind of being having your cell phone number and your address plastered all over the place. But if you are in this role, then I think it's just yeah, learning your boundaries and then learning how to like kind of differentiate what's serious and requires your attention what is just like misplaced anger.

Alissa Hessler: 29:52

People feel so emboldened now because there's so much kind of anonymity in this world and that has been so directed people that serve in office and everything is so contentious. And I think that that dissuade a lot of people wanting to get into politics and try to make change. So I really wondered what your experience was like. So, in your opinion, how has the Democratic Party left rural America behind? And how can they be more mindful and inclusive of rural communities when campaigning and writing legislation,

Unknown: 30:26

when talking about this very, very important topic, I always just like to say that there are so many incredible democratic organizers and candidates and elected officials who have really been holding space in rural communities and doing the really hard work. And that all has to be recognized. We're not lumping together all Democrats, and we have this conversation. But in general, broad themes that Democrats have left behind rural America, in 2009, there was an even partisan split amongst rural voters. And in 2019, rural voters were going 16 points Republican, sounds like a huge, huge shift in just a decade. In that same time, Democrats lost almost 1000 state legislative seats. And so when you kind of take those facts, combined with the other fact that the way that our country's political system has been created, really favors rural folks, because of the way the Electoral College works. All of that has just like pulled national and state level politics to the right, because Democrats have really just been focusing on cities, it's a very top down strategy. When you're just focusing on like presidential races or state level races, like a congressional race or a governor's race, you want to just turn out as many Democrats as possible, and you're gonna get the best bang for your buck in an urban space where all the Democrats are, you know, you it's not worth the effort if you're winning a statewide race to go out into rural communities. And so that has really forsaken state legislatures, which is really important, because we're seeing now like with Roe v. Wade, and all the Supreme Court decisions, how so much is falling to the states to protect people's rights. And we've kind of lost our, our backstop in many state legislatures, because we don't have a good foothold in rural spaces. We've also seen that the strategy of just focusing on urban places is kind of backfiring. Like we saw it when Trump got elected, that actually, the urban vote has swung so far to the right. And it's so powerful, that that the Democratic voter base in cities just is having a really hard time competing. So there's a lot that has kind of gone into this pretty stark, urban rural divide, you know, it goes back many, many decades, you know, to how Democrats can be concentrated in cities in the first place, which was really about workers rights and the labor movement and people flocking to the cities for good jobs. And then, you know, the labor movement is really connected to the Democratic Party. But it's also kind of been manifested in in larger, larger ways as well with this, Democrats deciding to focus on those rural spaces have ceded so much ground to Republicans in rural territory, there's, you know, little to no democratic infrastructure in many states and rural places. So like, there's not like active county committees, for example, or just spaces where people can engage as a Democrat. The conservative media has also been obviously such a huge force in rural America. Even in my small community, I can't count how many times have not done a door and FoxNews is playing in the background. And the conservative media and messaging has been, like a very intentional strategy on the right to kind of swing people towards a more conservative agenda. And the left just simply doesn't have that kind of strategy or resources to be able to compete with that. I think the left has also kind of abandoned movement building in rural spaces. There's just like a lot of great movements in in urban urban areas. But we don't have like that long term engagement or community building in rural spaces that can be activated during an election season to get good folks to run for office. I think the last thing is that there's just kind of like a lack of investment in rural candidates as well. So you know, if you're, if you're running like Kenya and grew up in North Carolina, and has done a lot of work in the south, and, you know, just his his frontline experience of watching these rural candidates just not receive support from the state party, because they want to put all of their resources into an urban space. It just makes people not want to run so we don't, we're not organizing. We don't have a good pool of folks to run for office. People don't want to run for office in general, because it's such an uphill battle. Then we get a lot of Republicans elected to state legislatures, and they gerrymander districts, which makes it even more different. called for Democrats to get a foothold.

Alissa Hessler: 35:03

That's multi layered. And I agree with all of the things that you are calling out because I've seen it firsthand in areas where I don't know, I think that the rhetoric of Trump being kind of outside of the norm, not business, as usual anymore really resonated with people because people are feeling cynical and disillusioned by our political system right now. They feel it's broken. And I wondered if you had any words for those people who are feeling like, there's no point in voting, there's no hope for good faith and reason to prevail, like what would you say to them?

Unknown: 35:41

I would say that there's definitely hope. And I think that we're really used to thinking about politics as something that's super divisive and nasty. And also, that's pretty far removed from our lives, like we mostly talk about who's running for governor, or who's running for president. But there are local races, you know, with people who live right down the road from you. And these races come down to dozens of boats, like not even hundreds, just dozens, and that is where your vote matters. And when we kind of talk about how much power local politics has, it really makes every vote so, so important. And if we're voting for people who are kind and empathetic and considerate, and conscientious, then we're going to see our political conversations change. And we just really have to throw our support behind those kinds of folks. I mean, in Maine right now, it's really scary to see that there's all of this war happening at the school board level over books, you know, in which books should be banned? And are we going to ban books that teach children about different sexual identities and gender identities? You know, and that conversation is so important, and we all know that it's happening, but the people who are actually going to be confronting those decisions are people that we elect to school boards, which is office, it's such a local job, it's such an important job, we often don't like really think about it that much. But sometimes people win those races by like, sometimes there's like 200 people voting in a school board base, and then that one, the school board chair, you know, or that person who gets elected has so much power over what's happening in an entire school district. So I think it's just kind of like, reframing how we think about politics, how it is it is local, it is accessible. And it's only nasty because of the people that were voting for.

Alissa Hessler: 37:33

The Maine legislature doesn't pay a lot like a lot of people that work in public office have to have other full time jobs. How does that influence what policy is being made and who's able to run for office and the voices that are able to be there?

Unknown: 37:51

It has such a huge impact. It's like ridiculous, Maine is one of many states that has a part time citizen legislature. So none of us are career politicians, or make a living wage doing this work. If you're in the legislature, you get paid $14,000, your first year and $12,000. The second year, though, sorry, $10,000, a second year. So it's really nothing. And when you're in session, which is basically half the year you are like, full, it's like a full time job. And so this means a few things. One, you don't get paid to run for office, and you barely get paid to be an office. And so it really attracts and is accessible to folks who are independently wealthy or who are retired. I'm really lucky because I ran when I was 25. And I was married, I didn't have any kids, I still don't. And so my work was really flexible. I could like stay up late and work, I could work in the mornings, you know, I kind of had the flexibility in my life to be able to, to work and run and work and serve. But part of why I'm not running again. And part of why is because I it's just too it's just too much to make work financially. And I think when we have legislatures that are really comprised of folks with more privilege, and that is really reflected in policy, because privilege isn't often aware of privilege. And so when we're thinking about who's at the table having a conversation about this policy, are impacted communities at the table. are we voting based on who's actually impacted by what we're talking about? Or are we voting based on just like, what our political leaders are saying? Are we even sponsoring legislation that's that's confronting the deepest needs in our community? It kind of blinds us to some of those questions, and I've definitely seen seeing that play out in the in the statehouse. You know, the other nuance of it is that the legislature, it made all states is just super duper wonky. It's really, really difficult to figure out how to engage with it like how to testify when to show up what to say it's just like a huge murky mess and it really takes like a decent amount of effort for someone to want to bring their voice to the table. able. And so, you know, because of that I think the folks who are most impacted like can't drive to Augusta or hop on zoom in the middle of the day to share their story because they're working, or they, they can't access the technology or, you know, whatever it may, they don't have a ride to Augusta. And so I think that makes it even more important to be electing people who can represent voices really, really well represented represent impacted communities.

Alissa Hessler: 40:27

I just wanted to give an enormous thank you to all of you who have made contributions to offset the production costs of this podcast, it means so much to me that you find enough meaning and value to pledge your support to keep this going. If you haven't had a chance to contribute, we've made it really easy for you just click the support button on the top of urban Exodus website, you can also get access to bonus episodes, rapid fire interviews, and our new mini podcast, ditch the city by signing up for our apple podcast premium. Or you can become a member of the urban Exodus online community where you can access hundreds of photos, stories, interviews, tutorials, videos, and more. Find out more by visiting the membership page on urban exodus.com. If you could wave a magic wand, if you had absolute power to fix our broken democracy as it is right now, what changes would you make and why?

Unknown: 41:26

I think one of the big things would be getting big money out of politics, you know, like, for better for worse, that just does have such a huge impact on races, and just everything in general, like, you know, anyone can really come into a race and spend a lot of money on a candidate. And there's not a whole lot that you can do to stop that. And I think that's, that's pretty scary. Even in little Maine, you know, like we're talking about CMP, for example, and all of the money that they can draw on creating a really specific narrative and how effective that is. That's, that's not cool. I think we do need full time well paid legislatures, you know, like lots of training and lots of support and lots of resources so that we have a political body that is really representative of all of the people in the state, I think that the political process also needs to be much more open and held more accountable. A lot of times, decisions happen behind closed doors or in caucuses. And, you know, I think, as an elected official, I understand, like the need to kind of have a private space to kind of process all the ins and outs of something. But I think that it creates a lack of accountability, that's really dangerous. And it makes it kind of difficult to say, as an elected official, like, something just happened in a private space that I can't talk about. And and so and then the public, like can't see it and can't react to it. And I think that, you know, the way that we address problems needs to be really holistic and completely driven by frontline impacted community is the the ship that we're trying, there's many chips that we're trying to turn on all of the various issues that we're talking about. I mean, they're just so huge and so complex, but, you know, when it comes to kind of getting people elected, it's often like a bit more of a piecemeal approach. And I think that's, that's pretty, pretty detrimental. I think, you know, it's kind of tied into, like, our terms are really short, which I think is good, because it kind of it's like, it's kind of like a job review to get elected every two years. But it also makes it really difficult to kind of like have that long term vision and strategy. And so I think there also needs to be kind of out side infrastructures that are that are like housing, all of the recovery work or housing, all the climate justice work, so that there's that institutional knowledge so that you're not kind of like starting from ground zero every time someone who gets elected. I think my last point on that, related to what I just said, is that the most power comes from a well organized movement that's influencing the system. And I think that being able to have movements that can really access the system and having allies inside who helped people access the system, is where we can get the most movement and leverage and I think just yeah, just not not isolating power in like one particular building

Alissa Hessler: 44:24

that goes hand in hand to with like lobbying and getting news and then big business out of politics entirely. Because then, you know, social movements can actually have an ear of politicians. And it's so hard to wish those shorter terms. I also feel like of the people that I've spoke to in office, it feels like it's so hard. It's such a balance beam of trying to fundraise for your next campaign while also trying to get legislation done and like it's just this never ending thing and starting from scratch, like if you're going into A new thing. And there's nobody kind of left that was working on that before. Like, what's the handoff like? Let's talk about your book, dirt road revival. You discuss how to rebuild rural politics based on your experiences of the campaign trail. And you really you provide like a cohesive roadmap for other people who might be interested in running for political office in a rural area. So I wondered what the book writing process was like for you and Kenyan and kind of the summary message of the book.

Unknown: 45:31

Yeah, the book was definitely a labor of love, you know, Kenyans. And I went into both of our campaigns with a really specific vision of doing progressive rural politics in a different way. And so from the very beginning, we had started taking notes and doing voice memos, texts, and Google Docs. And just like, kind of accidentally documenting everything that we were experiencing, because it was an experiment at first and we realized it was working and that we were learning so much like there was something there. And so throughout the throughout our four years of campaigning and serving and running it, it really coalesced into a book. And we really wanted the book to be action oriented and positive and have a lot of solutions in it and not just kind of lament about the problem and describe something that worked like four years ago. So the book kind of tells our story lays out the the challenges that the Democratic Party is having rural America, and then has three chapters on different solutions, strategies, tactics, approaches that we use in our campaigns to win in rural conservative spaces, and that we hope can be helpful to other folks in their in their hometowns. We we wrote the book after we won in 2020, we wrote it in six months, because we we had been campaigning for the whole year. And so by the time we got done campaigning, and we had won, we jumped right into writing the book, and I was writing serving my first term in the Senate canyons and ultra runner, professional ultra runners. So he was writing as he was training, and we just, we wrote it. And we wrote it together and really tried to bring in all of the voices of our community and our incredible volunteers that helped make our campaigns what what they were just really share the stories of these movements that that bubbled up in in rural Maine. Now it's a book out there and in the world.

Alissa Hessler: 47:24

Well, I just finished reading it. And I loved just how accessible it felt and how clear it was. And you're very good to preface like this is the things on the table that we had. And this isn't, you know, Bible, like I think that sometimes people will be like, this is the way but I really appreciated how open and honest it was. And then it was just your perspective from what you had done. So I'll have a link to that, for anybody who would like to read it. There has been a big influx of people moving to rural communities, both in Maine and all over the country in recent years from cities. And those moves have been motivated by the changing climate. I'm seeing like kind of the first wave of climate refugees coming from southern states and from the West, and also from COVID. and various other reasons. What positives Do you see from this migration? And what are the pain points? In your opinion?

Unknown: 48:22

Yeah, I definitely live in one of those communities where we have a lot of a lot of new folks moving in. I think the pain points are that, you know, it's really just driving up the cost of housing, you know, and housing accessibility and affordability in general. And I think manners are so prideful of like, our way of life. And I think people I mean, I've heard that, you know, when you see like, a whole, a whole forest being chopped down for a new driveway for like, a nice house down by the water or whatever, it just kind of like changes the aesthetic and the quality. And then it kind of changes, like the stories that you hear about people out in town, and just the different language, like a different vibe when you live here. And I think, I think that's changing, which is really, which is sad, but I think the positives are that a lot of these families are younger, and we need we definitely need more, more younger families and more, more children and young people in general in our rural spaces, and I think it's it's bringing more economic vitality to some of the some of the smaller towns that that really need it. No, maybe there is some worried people who will come because they like, like this lie that maybe that means we're gonna have more access to broadband and the cost of our schools will go down and maybe there'll be more young people moving here to support their their aging parents and kind of take the strain off of our healthcare system, like, you know, who knows that the with the consequences of all of this will be but yeah, it's good and bad.

Alissa Hessler: 49:49

It's the exact same here I'm in like, further up north and mid coast, Maine, and it's the same here. I mean, I think property values have probably gone up by like 30 to 40% and somewhere Is which is just like absolutely staggering, especially because it's so hard if you work in Maine to be able to afford a house here unless you own your own business or telecommuting and so yeah, I just I just wondered your perspective on that, because it's only going to increase like, I've had people ask me this question a lot. And, you know, I'm constantly getting braids of emails from people out west who are like, how was New England. And it's just, you know, they're trying to escape fire and lack of water resources. And I think just like this climate crisis is going to cause these giant migrations. And I wondered if you had any advice for people who are moving into a new community, as somebody who came back to your hometown, and you went door to door knocking and getting so many other people's perspectives? What advice would you give them on ways to build bridges and those communities instead of building walls? Oh,

Unknown: 50:59

yeah, I mean, I think it's just all about really listening to folks, and respecting what you hear and not kind of being wedded to an ideology, I think, I think it's really easy to just say, like, oh, my gosh, my neighbor has a page sign out, they're like, I don't want to go talk with him, and to kind of let that build up in you. But I think you don't really, you can't really judge unless you've, you've gone and talk to folks. And, and I actually think that the, you know, kind of this conservative ethic in rural Maine, some parts of it, certainly not all parts of it, because there's often a lot of racism and xenophobia mixed up in it, but some of there's, I feel like there's actually some really good parts of it, just like you know, and that was such a part of my upbringing of just like hard work and living off the land and like hunting for your food for the winter. And, you know, learning how to use a gun properly and safely just like they're, you know, learning how to ice fish or snowmobile. Like they're the kind of parts of the culture here that I think are so special and so unique, and they're kind of slipping away. And there's, it's really worth holding on to,

Alissa Hessler: 52:03

as you are now farming with your partner, I'd love for you to share what your farm grows, what you love about farming and what the challenges are.

Unknown: 52:15

Yes, this is my first season like really farming so and he's been farming for many many years. So I don't want to like appropriate anyone's farming story but my own we grow veggies are mainly growing veggies for the for the food pantries is a awesome program in Maine that pays farmers to grow food for the for the food pantries. But we also have a small farm stand, and we sell to some of the local stores. And I think that you know, this concept of growth, you know, it's just like, What beauty can come out of something that doesn't look beautiful at first, like in the spring everything's so kind of like, cold and damp. And you just like doesn't look great, you don't really know what to do with it. You just kind of work and you're patient and you're caring, and you're kind and then so much beauty comes a bit that really serves so many people. And it's so good for the world and your body and your mind. So it's just, it's really special. And I I love it a lot as farming

Alissa Hessler: 53:13

helped, like kind of heal those parts of you that you felt burnt out. And I mean, it's very laborious, but I feel like me this morning I like as part of my new routine to make myself not be burnt out. I just went out and like pulled weeds and stuff. And I wondered if it's that same feeling for you.

Unknown: 53:32

Oh, it totally is. Yeah, I've definitely. I was very burned out when our session ended in May. And I've I've yeah, I've just been basically farming every day since then. And yeah, it's very restorative. It's very quiet. It's also difficult, you know, it's not, it's not it's not easy. And there's a lot of a lot of challenges for sure. And, you know, we're also farming like on a pretty small scale. And there's like much, much larger farms out there. Like, especially with the job this summer, and just how difficult that's been. But it is, yeah, it's really restorative and I think just kind of connecting with the land and the things that will always be here, whether everything's good or bad or whether we live or die. You know, that's like that's the stuff I want to invest in.

Alissa Hessler: 54:23

Yeah, that's what it is. It's like it's a way to just be one with nature too. And to be able to create food and resiliency in your community without maybe some of the some of the contention and difficulties of previous. So you've decided not to run for reelection. And I know that you are starting this new initiative called Dirt Road organizing. How have your constituents and fellow lawmakers responded to your decision? And what is your plan for dirt road organizing going forward. Yeah, Canyon

Unknown: 55:02

Canyon, and I started to see for dirt road organizing to really be able to support rural organizers and rural rural candidates who are who are running, we feel like there's a lot more utility in us supporting lots of folks doing this work than us just kind of focusing on getting me elected every two years. And the only way we could really pour pour our hearts into it is if if I didn't run again, which is one of one of the reasons why I didn't run, I think I definitely had a lot of mixed feelings about it, like I worked really, really, really desperately hard to win. And I made some relationships that, you know, are gonna last a lifetime earned earned trust, and I really didn't want to break any of that. But I also it just wasn't sustainable for me. And there's other things that I wanted to do, like being able to support lots of folks that I just couldn't do with our legislative schedule. So, you know, it's the right, the right move for me, but it's sad, it's sad to be leaving, leaving office I, there's, it's so important, it's such an important role. And I don't want to send the message out, it's not important at all. But I think we also just need like lots of people to to run and get ready to run and run again. And it's not easy, especially in these trickier districts. And so like, I think the question in our minds are, how do we just support folks doing this work year after year after year, make sure that if they're tired, if they're burned out that we got, we got more folks to come in and to carry the load.

Alissa Hessler: 56:31

So you're basically filling the holes that you started to see when you ran for office and enticing and discovering new talent and trying to provide resources for people in rural communities that want to run for office? Like have you successfully been able to test your campaigning strategies in communities outside of Maine yet? Or, you know, what does that look like thus far?

Unknown: 56:56

Yeah, we're the RCW for is very new. It's so you know, we're just we're getting there, we've done you know, we've talked, one of the beautiful parts of the book being published has been being able to connect with with rural candidates all across the country. You know, we do that outside of the seafloor work because the seafloor is nonpartisan, but just being able to hear, like what people are doing and how they're just confronting so many of the same challenges and feelings that we have, like, there are just so many awesome people doing this work all over the place. And I think there's just such huge opportunity to be able to really cater support to people doing this work in in trickier rural districts. So, yeah, that's just kind of that's the, that's the next phase and want to Yeah, I want to make sure that people feel like they don't have to start from ground zero and in ways that we kind of felt sometimes.

Alissa Hessler: 57:45

What are some of your plans and goals for the coming years? How can people kind of follow along or learn more about dirt road organizing?

Unknown: 57:54

Yeah, people can go to dirt road revival.com and sign up for our newsletter, and we're going to be kind of sending out updates from there. And we're really going to be building up our SSI for over the next year and doing a lot of rural organizing work in 2023 and 2024. As we head into the presidential elections. I also do a lot of work here in Maine to support youth civic engagement around climate justice issues. And so I spent a lot of time doing that and farming and just gonna gonna be here and Midcoast, Maine plugging away.

Alissa Hessler: 58:25

It has been such a pleasure and honor to speak with you, Chloe, like I said, I've just been wowed by you and what you've been able to do here in Maine. And I hope I get to meet you someday soon. We don't live that far away from one another.

Unknown: 58:39

Me too. Oh, wonderful. Yeah.

Alissa Hessler: 58:42

Thank you so much for speaking with us. I really appreciate it.

Unknown: 58:45

Thank you so much for inviting me.

Alissa Hessler: 58:49

Thank you, Chloe for joining us on the show. Some of my key takeaways from this episode, we are often encouraged to judge and to place labels on whole swaths of people without knowing anything about them. Chloe's decision to talk directly to 1000s of voters in her district, regardless of their party affiliation is a testament to the powerful effects of conversation, active listening, respect, and a refusal to define people based on their politics. Conversations around solutions to climate change often come from a privileged place. Chloe's work and point of view illustrates the importance of creating new energy economies that respect people's current jobs, and imagine a prosperous and sustainable future for all. Also, politicians need to be paid a living wage, and there should be caps put on the amount of money that can be fundraised and spent on a run for office. The fact that one must be independently wealthy, retired, or receive outside funding makes the work of public office is less accessible to the people who intimately understand the issues facing the majority of voters. It also gives big business the ability to influence policy and policy makers by holding the purse strings of elected officials. changes must be made to reduce the cost of entry to political office and to eliminate corporate interest on the local, state and national levels. And lastly, local politics is often under appreciated. But like Chloe said, it is where your power as a voter matters the most. Educate yourself on local politics, and participate in helping affect change in your local community. Hi, friends, thank you so much for tuning in to another episode of the urban Exodus podcast. This is a listener supported program that is only made possible through your continued support. And if you haven't already, we would really love it if you'd leave us a five star review on Apple podcasts, or Spotify, or whatever service you listen on. And please recommend urban access to your friends. An enormous thank you to my incredible producer Simone Leon, and my amazing editor Johnny Sol, and my music man, Benjamin Thoreau, and thanks to all of you for listening. I'm Alissa Hessler. And this is the urban Exodus