An ethical farm-based skincare company built out of necessity | James Ray of Little Seed Farm in Lebanon, TN

How do you face financial uncertainty when making the move rurally? James Ray is someone who would describe himself as extremely cautious. In the city, he worked as  a financial analyst on Wall Street, and was well-aware of the risks associated with leaving steady employment. He saved nearly everything he made for years. When James and his wife Eileen finally made the move and purchased land, James kept his city job and telecommuted to help with the start up costs associated with getting their farm business up and running. However, less than 6 months after their move, Eileen became pregnant, and the company James was working for went under, leaving him jobless in their small community. 

They decided to try selling the goat milk soap Eileen had made for her grandmother in the farmers market circuit and it flew off the shelves. Even with their early success, they never could have imagined that in just a few years they would build a nationally recognized organic skin and body care brand with their small herd of goats.  In our discussion, we explore some of the challenges of building a manufacturing operation in a remote area, balancing home life, and prioritizing your values when it comes to building a profitable business.

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Transcript

Alissa Hessler: 0:00

Way back before the pandemic began, I had a question. What does it take for a city person to go country in 2015, I set out to explore through photography, writing. And now this podcast in February, I recorded most of the interviews for the first season. I plan to launch in April of 2020, the five year anniversary of the project, but then everything turned upside down. And it just didn't feel like the right time to launch because so much had changed overnight. As the initial shock of the pandemic wore off, it became clear that many people with the means to do so we're leaving cities in droves. Recent data has shown that nearly 16 million people have relocated in the US this year, making the concept of an urban Exodus even more relevant. So while some of the interviews in the season were conducted before the pandemic, the topics they discuss the questions they raise, and the answers they provide are more urgent than ever. I'm Alissa Hessler, welcome to the urban Exodus. Planning for a rural move, especially when you want to start a small business is not one to take lightly. Even the most careful plans can be up ended for a myriad of reasons for James re owner of little Seed Farm is well planned exit strategy from New York City involved his wife Eileen getting their farm business up and running, while James telecommuted to his city job so that they could afford the startup costs. But as luck would have it, just a few months after they moved, the company James worked for when under and he was out of a job with their first child on the way they had to work quickly to focus their efforts and find a way to earn a living. They never could have imagined that in just a few short years, they would build a nationally recognized skincare company from their small town in Tennessee. What motivated you both to decide to make a plan to leave New York City and move somewhere to learn how to farm?

James Ray: 2:13

Yeah, I mean, getting out of the city, as soon as we realized we were we were gonna get engaged and then married and then have kids it was like, just envisioning that basically prompted us to pursue different a different passion and to research what we wanted to do. And we landed on farming and and starting our own business. So we were really lucky that it's worked out that we had that inspiration before it was too late, and that we're still here doing it today. I mean, it all kind of worked out really well.

Alissa Hessler: 2:46

Can you talk about the saving strategies you implemented while living in the city? Were there any creative ways in which you kept costs low to save for your eventual move?

James Ray: 2:54

Yeah, I mean, so before, before I met Eileen, I had some really interesting savings tactics. I lived in a in an apartment in Hell's Kitchen with two other guys. And so I worked really long hours, I was working like 100 to 120 hours a week at the beginning. And I first started and so I work from six or 7am until, you know, six or 7pm or later, and one of my best friends was a baker, Amy's bread, so he worked nights, we shared a bed, so we just rotate out like I would sleep at night, you would work at night, I would be you know, leaving in the morning, you'd be coming home, in bed, sleep all day. And then it would just go like that. So we we ended up being able to live, I think I lived like that for a couple years. And rent was only like 500 bucks a month in New York City. And you know, I had a good job. So I was able to pay off my student loans really quickly. And through that specific strategy, which I wouldn't necessarily advise anyone to take. I think I've been in the city for about seven years in my lane have been in the city for about six years before we made the shift. And, you know, we had we had what we had at the time to make the change. And I think more than anything more than having enough money to make the shift, which I mean, I think it's debatable whether we did or we didn't you know, we're certainly on the cusp of of it, but we didn't have you know, like a million dollars or anything. You know, we had a small nest egg saved, and we didn't have an income. I tried to plan it to where we could survive for three years, not making money. And I figured within three years we'd kind of know if we were able to do it or not.

Alissa Hessler: 4:39

What were your parameters for your farm and why did you ultimately decide to settle here in Tennessee,

James Ray: 4:46

we knew you know, we needed about 100 or so acres we wanted about which we ended up with 84 we wanted between 30 and 50 acres of gradable land and we ended up with 35 So a little A little bit smaller than kind of what we're looking for, but certainly enough, and then we wanted a home that we could live in without having to invest too much money into it. And then visiting Nashville, it was just really apparent that Nashville was the next kind of city and it was growing. We've met so many other entrepreneurs and made so many good relationships with other small businesses and people pursuing their dreams. That you know, even even though we're pretty much alone out here on on the farm all the time, and we don't make it in this time when we do. It's, it's a blast. And we have so many amazing customers in the Nashville area that really are the reason why we were able to grow.

Alissa Hessler: 5:47

So you left New York City, and you brought your remote job with you. But then your company went under, what was that like to kind of find your way and figure out how to make a living in the country on a much more expedited schedule than you had originally planned for?

James Ray: 6:05

There was a lot of pressure at that time. I mean, we had moved out here with Eileen having quit her job, and she was going to focus solely on farming and learning the ropes. And yeah, we were left without an income. And we had this farm. And while we were doing so it really was kind of like a rubber meeting the road at that time. I really love to be in on the farm. And I really wanted to make it work out here. And I figured, you know, we've got this chance. Like I said, we had enough savings to last a couple years if it didn't work out. So you know, why not? Just give it a try?

Alissa Hessler: 6:43

Did you start in the Farmers Market circuit? Is that how you tested your product? Initially,

James Ray: 6:47

we were a vendor when a lot of the local farmers markets were just starting. So at that time there was there's really only one farmers market at the time that was kind of big enough to support a large group of vendors and in Nashville. And then within a year or two, I mean, there must have been 10 farmers markets, so you could really kind of pick and choose. And we found a few that worked well for us that were within commutable distance. And we also so we did those on a weekly basis. I think we did on like Thursday night, Friday night, Saturday, which is a lot. And if you have kids, it's virtually impossible, which is why we don't do it. Now, for anybody out there listening that doesn't participate in farmers markets, but shops at them. Say thank you to those people, because it is hard to go into a farmers market and providing food and stuff like that every week. I mean, after having done that for a few years, that's so much respect for the farmers that do that and go in there and purchasing their products, I mean, more than happy to give them my money. Because it is it is a lot of time and effort on their behalf to grow that food and bring it to you so you can have high quality local produce.

Alissa Hessler: 7:58

So when we visited you back in 2015, you were only selling soap at that point, can you tell me how little Seed Farm has expanded and what other products you offer now and maybe some of your products that you've become known for,

James Ray: 8:13

we really started selling soap right before our son George was born. And mostly because the company I worked for at the time, remotely had gone out of business. So I needed something to do and I didn't want to get a real job again for another company. So I started making soap and Eileen was starting to develop skincare body care products. And over time that's really evolved into as the soap business. So we may 17 Different kinds of soap. And Eileen has really spent a lot of time researching and developing new skincare and body care products. We started researching natural deodorants, pretty much all of our products develop out of personal needs. So we started making soap frames, grandma, Eileen started developing a deodorant for me. And it's been our top selling product the last two years.

Alissa Hessler: 9:04

When we visited back in 2015, you were really in the early stages of building little seed farm and you were doing all of the work yourselves. Tell us a little bit about how your business has grown and your intentions for growth, to free up time maybe to spend with your family before George

James Ray: 9:25

we didn't really have a whole lot of intention of really growing much. And then I think once the possibility of having a family kind of came around. And we thought about it, we just realized that if we didn't grow, we'd be working more than we wanted to. So we kind of wanted to grow enough to at least have some employees and have some help around the farm and stuff so that we could spend more time with the kids and as a family. So really the intention at at the time was just to grow to free up some of our own power. It's just kind of chug belong, you know, it's been fun.

Alissa Hessler: 10:04

What do your days look like now for the two of you, and how do you divide your time?

James Ray: 10:10

Days vary depending on kind of on what's going on. I mean, I still pretty much work a little bit at least seven days a week, I do the farm work on Sundays so that the rest of our team can have Sundays off, and we can have kind of a family day on the farm. Seasonally, obviously, the farm work varies. There's more. There's a lot more of our time and involvement around the kidding season when all the goats are having their babies. You know, there's still this seasonal degree of it. But we do work less now on the farm. And originally, for the first three or four years, we were the only people doing any of the work and it was very, very long hours long work weeks, it was tough. What are

Alissa Hessler: 10:54

your and I liens roles at little seed farm,

James Ray: 10:56

I do a lot of the real kind of monotonous like stuff that has to get done day to day and I lean she spends a lot of time focused on the customer facing side of it and stuff that we can do as a brand to improve. You need to communicate what you stand for. And you need to communicate your story. And without Eileen skills, we wouldn't be able to do any of those things. And then I just kind of tried to keep the wheels turning,

Alissa Hessler: 11:21

you continue to do all of your manufacturing and distribution on your farm. Can you talk a little bit about your choice of deciding to do that instead of outsourcing to a larger manufacturer or distribution center,

James Ray: 11:36

we've always wanted to be responsible for the supply chain from start to finish so that we can be one aware of everything exactly. That's going into the products, and then also be able to communicate with our customers and know for a fact that what we're saying is in our products is actually in our products.

Alissa Hessler: 11:54

What are some of the drawbacks of not being able to scale in that way where you would move your production outside?

James Ray: 12:01

It's just it's a lot of work. I mean, it really is a lot of oversight, you have to learn a lot about the equipment you're using, you know, production and manufacturing standards and quality control type stuff, supply chain management, just everything in addition to building out and owning the infrastructure and equipment for all of that as well. So, you know, everything is little is do we have enough power for a new piece of equipment? Do we need a forklift? You know, how are we going to receive all this stuff where we're gonna store it all?

Unknown: 12:38

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Alissa Hessler: 13:10

How long did it take you to build a business where you felt like it was sustainable and financially secure.

James Ray: 13:17

It took about three years before we were profitable. And then it took probably another two to three before we felt comfortable and in all honesty I would just say in this last year which is our eighth year. This last year is when I've personally felt more comfortable so about eight years for me I am probably say a lot less. I don't know maybe she's still on her toes.

Alissa Hessler: 13:48

You've made real strides to work towards zero waste business model. What does that process been like? And what is your advice for other businesses wanting to do this but being worried about bottom line

James Ray: 13:58

we so a few of the major things that we've done well one was the solar power to begin with, and then our land management practices as a farm but from a manufacturing standpoint, and from a production standpoint, the things that we attempt to do the most are avoid the use of use of plastic. We tried to use only recycled or recyclable materials glass aluminum, or Prem you know primarily what we use paper and cardboard, recycled paper recycled cardboard. And then we offer all the the one of the thing that I'm most proud of and I think we're most proud of as a business is being able to offer people shopping on our website, a zero waste shopping method where you can literally go on say you want to jar a deodorant go on. Order your jar and deodorant you just click a box that says ship my order zero waste. What we do is we just take we take that deodorant and instead of shipping sent to you in a box in the packaging, we ship it without the packaging. In a tiny cardboard box, we try to use the smallest box possible. To begin with, we put the jar deodorant in there with some biodegradable packing peanuts. And that's it. If we can address it, I feel like we are having a positive impact, even though there's this dichotomy of being sustainable, and then also manufacturing stuff. And I think at some point, you just have to realize, you know, people are going to use deodorant, you want to make the best, lowest waist least impact product out there on the market and continuously improve, you know, we try to make improvements to the supply chain, to the environmental sustainability of the business on a daily basis, and to just grow as much as we can towards that.

Alissa Hessler: 15:54

How much do you want little seed farm to grow in the future? Is there a limit you've set for sustainable growth that you don't want to go beyond?

James Ray: 16:01

Oh, well, so we don't we don't we're not like a financially driven company, I don't, we do not focus on growth. And growth is not one of our priorities. Well, we, what's nice about the stuff that we make is that it's, it's products that people use and consume, and they're going to use and consume them, I don't like to set any kind of limit on how big or small we should be, I think we should let that be driven by the consumer in the users of our product and the word of mouth. And people driving that growth, and finding ways to grow without having having a detrimental impact is important. So so far, we've been able to do that we're still super, super tiny, in the grand scheme of things. So we just kind of take it day to day and as needs arise, we just make sure we can address them appropriately in a way that's, you know, consistent with our vision as a company. And if we can keep doing that, and then I don't think there's any limit, you know, to set on on the size of the business necessarily,

Alissa Hessler: 17:09

what legacy Do you want to leave behind for your kids and for future generations,

James Ray: 17:14

build little Seed Farm, consistent with our original vision, and then have that be something that if you know, the kids, Georgia and Cecilia are interested in, you know, letting them be as involved in it as they want to be? Or not, you know, and so I think I think we really just want to have in terms of the future just a business that we that that stays true to the values that it was originally founded on and provides, you know, an opportunity for, for whether it's Giorgio Cecilia or, or whoever ends up taking over the business in the future, you know, to continue operating it

Alissa Hessler: 17:54

does success mean anything different to you now that you're away from the city and you've built this business? I think

James Ray: 18:01

once you're responsible for a company and you're responsible for the other people involved, and you know, everything from, from the companies that are making the stuff that you use the boxes that you package your products in the packing peanuts, you know, the the entire supply chain, and then your team that helps, you know, execute everything, and then your customers that really depend on you for products that they believe in, you know, that whole just ecosystem of things becomes it has so much more of an importance in your life and your job did before.

Alissa Hessler: 18:42

I know that Tennessee has been battling a lot of heavy rains over the past couple of years. Have you noticed any other changes in the climate since moving there?

James Ray: 18:53

Yeah, we have the last few years. It's been an insane amount of rain. But yeah, I mean, which Yeah, I mean, it's a climate pattern that's made life difficult for sure. But yeah, I think I think you see that happening all over the world and whether it's, you know, the hottest year on record like every year back to back to back or you know, just like weird stuff happening you know, all the time you know, 100 year floods every like other year and stuff like that. It's it's a lot going on. So you know, we we're out here in it every day, no matter what's happening, dealing with the flooding dealing with the he called, you know, tornadoes, whatever the case may be, you know, as farmers. Yeah, you know, we try to do as much as we can. From a sustainability standpoint, we try to take care of the soil and farm it in a way that when it does rain a lot it can absorb it and move it in a way that that is consistent with maintaining the integrity of the soil, you know, using perennial grasses and things that have root structures that prevent erosion and you know, just just rebuilding our topsoil maintaining you know, sustainable practices and doing what we can from from a climate standpoint, we contribute also to various climate friendly charities that do things on a larger scale. And then we try to do what we can here and and otherwise just, just try to be prepared for it and take it day to day and learn. Learn how to live with the with the reality that we're in.

Unknown: 20:34

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Alissa Hessler: 21:14

That last interview with James was recorded in February of 2020. Things were a little bit rosier back then, I caught back up with him a few weeks ago, to see how they were doing and how their business was weathering this very difficult time.

James Ray: 21:30

I think from a family perspective, we're doing well. I mean, I feel like it would be really silly to complain about anything because everybody's fine and healthy. And none of us have had COVID or really even known anybody directly, you know, that had COVID are a serious case of it anyway. So from a family perspective, aside from just the day to day, stress and changes, you know, that I think have occurred in everyone's life, the kids, you know, just being out of school in the spring was really difficult, because that effectively takes one parent out of the workforce at a minimum, sometimes more. And just the fluctuation the lack of a routine, the lack of any kind of stability from a, you know, childcare slash school standpoint is difficult for parents. So, you know, we've been dealing with that just like every other parent, but we've gotten to sail through it. Okay, and I don't know if that's because of our rural location or what but I'm just kind of hoping we make it through this winter and that 2021 ends up being a bit better than 2020 was

Alissa Hessler: 22:41

what about from a business perspective? How have you changed maybe your daily operations or how you run your business if you had to be felt like you've had to pivot at all or things stay pretty steady for you the period

James Ray: 22:54

between February and like the end of July, I felt like was the equivalent of like three years approximately worth of like, just stress and difficulty and management, you know, testing of management skills and business acumen and stuff so we we implemented I mean we're relatively early you know, I think for like Tennessee like we had implemented masks and sanitizing stations and stuff before the state you know, even like really went on lockdown. So you know, we kind of like into February started really addressing it started really stockpiling don't obviously as farmers you gotta think year a year or more in advance with regard to certain decisions, but not typically with buying toilet paper. It just added like a degree of complexity to the whole situation we rearranged all the workspaces, you know, our primary business is shipping is like direct to consumer, you know, our packing stations are relatively close together, like the people picking the orders and the inventory management just like the whole space, we just divided everybody up and just kind of move stations packing stations around tighly inefficient now from just like a labor standpoint, like people walking long distances to do things that they used to not have to do before but we were able to manage through it, I think,

Alissa Hessler: 24:20

has your business been negatively impacted by the pandemic? Are you seeing a decline in sales online or with your wholesale accounts?

James Ray: 24:31

We were really fortunate you know, being an E commerce business I feel like you know, definitely helped in terms of people staying home wanting to shop more online, you know, we were impacted negatively at our accounts like Kroger and and other like small boutique shops that went out of business and stuff like that because there's less foot traffic there. So even though you can buy your groceries online, you know our product sells better when you see it in person. You're shopping online. at Kroger for squash and oranges or whatever, you're not being drawn to the $7 a bar like boutique looking soap. So that's how the business, you know, hadn't hasn't performed that well, but the rest of it has and has grown.

Alissa Hessler: 25:17

You've had to navigate around a lot of issues this year. Do you see any silver linings to this kind of fire drill that you've gone through as a business?

James Ray: 25:28

Yeah, I mean, that's, that's actually one of the, one of the few highlights of the year I think, is just having gone, gone through that, as a business owner really, like teaches you a lot and about what's possible, that like, change isn't always necessarily a bad thing. You just have to, you know, work through it at the time and not not let it, you know, hold you back. So, that's, that's definitely one thing that I look back on 2020. And I'm like, Okay, that was that was actually good. You know, it was scary at first, but it was actually a really good thing and makes me more confident in our business. You know, going forward?

Alissa Hessler: 26:03

A question that I've been fielding a lot has been from people who are moving from progressive areas to places that are less progressive, and what that feels like to be kind of an outlier in a red space, if you come from a place where most people vote and think the same way that you do. How have you navigated this in Tennessee, and made inroads to connect with people who maybe don't think the same way that you do? From a political standpoint,

James Ray: 26:38

for the most part, like face to face? No one has any issue with it, and you can have a nice conversation, even if you have differing opinion, I don't say I wouldn't say like, you know, unnecessarily to our face, or anything, have we ever felt like outsiders or whatever, but, and I've never felt, you know, shy about having different opinion. But we've been pretty vocal about where we stand on certain fronts and the things we've done as a business to just kind of like address systemic racism and making that a priority amongst our other, you know, charitable investments, we had an unreal amount of blowback for that, and our particular stance and email and post about that. Yeah, so that was, that was interesting. You know, we have a lot of positive feedback. But when you, you know, take a stance like that that's not supported by the people around you, then you do feel like, okay, I just isolated myself a little bit. And we received hundreds of emails from people that were furious. Wow. And I personally sat down and responded to every single one, no matter what they were saying, no matter how evil, you know, the words that they used were, and I just told them, I honestly thought I told Eileen, I was like really cathartic. And it was like one time where I felt like, I could just be myself from a customer service standpoint, like a lot of times, you're really toeing the line, and you want to do what's right for the customer, and you want to make sure that they know that, that you're doing what's right for them. And we take a lot of pride in our customer service and treating people well. But I was able to voice some thoughts pretty directly to some folks that said, some really, you know, damaging things. And that felt good, just letting them know, like, Hey, this is our space. This is where our business stands. And you don't you don't come into here in our business and our businesses email inbox and say stuff like that, because I'm not gonna stand for it, hopefully enlightened some people and in all honesty, I do think that those efforts helped change a few people's minds. Like by the end of it, of the conversations there were there were people that that were like, Okay, I see, I see what you're saying, I understand it. And that's fine. And other people just didn't, didn't want to see it, no matter no matter how much you tried to explain it. You know?

Alissa Hessler: 29:01

What is your advice for other business owners? I think that it's been kind of a hard time to navigate as a business owner where you don't want to isolate yourself from potential customers, but also you feel a real responsibility to speak out.

James Ray: 29:15

We're by no means the like, most vocal about all of the things that we believe in our personal lives, I think certain things just kind of trigger a natural desire to respond. I think at the end of the day, you know, you as a business owner, you just have to decide when when you're gonna step out and say something and when you're not. And at that point in time, I feel like I feel like everybody needed to come together for something bigger and show their support and their love and just know that you know, they were out there on the right side of things, and let you know everyone else know that like it's not going to be tolerated and that the anti racist kind of sentiment is in the majority and that talking about those issues. addressing them is something that needs to be done and done publicly and done with the support of everyone from every community. Almost all businesses, for the most part did take a stance and come out and say something. So everyone did view it as important enough to come out and join forces. Now, I don't know how much of that from certain businesses was just lip service versus actually doing something. But I think in general, no, people have taken it seriously. And I hope they continue to.

Alissa Hessler: 30:32

What I love about little Seed Farm, is that they are constantly evolving to make their business better, better for the environment better for the people that work there better for society as a whole, just better. Of course, they're still worried about the bottom line, and profitability, and all the same things that other companies are worried about. But they're making sure their business practices stay aligned with their values. I think that it's important looking into the future, that we support businesses that are paying their employees living wages, that are reducing waste, and are just basically making mindful choices. We vote with our dollar and our dollar counts. To read more about James and Eileen and see pictures of their farm. Visit urban exodus.com. You can find them and their products at little seed farm.com or on Instagram at little Seed Farm. Join me next time when I speak with Kiersten Lee Nelson for Kiersten moving to the country gave her the space she needed to live out her dream of raising animals and building a sustainable homestead. In our conversation Kiersten discusses why she's passionate about geese. Why Maine is a great state for homesteaders and the creative ways in which she now earns a living. You can find us on Instagram at the Urban Exodus. To read more in depth features on folks who ditch the city and when country visit our website urban access.com This project is an enormous labor of love. If you appreciate the content we create please consider supporting our efforts on Patreon. If you are a small business who would like to sponsor an episode, please visit the podcast page on our website to learn more. An enormous thank you to my team who made this podcast possible production by Simone Leon editing by Ari Snyder and music by Benjamin birtherism. I'm Alissa Hessler and this is the urban Exodus. Stay kind, stay joyful and stay resilient.