E8: A modern homesteader revives a 200-year-old farm with her partner | Kirsten Lie-Nielsen of Hostile Valley Living in Liberty, ME

Is it even possible in our age of convenience to give it all up and work towards living off the land? Homesteader, a term used nowadays to define anyone on a greater quest for self-sufficiency. Like our ancestors before us, returning to a way of life where most of what you consume you make, grow, raise, and hunt yourself. A child of original bank-to-the-landers, Kirsten Lie-Nielsen was raised on a rural homestead. But, like any rebellious teenager, she yearned for the bright lights and excitement of the city. Yet, once she got there she realized quickly that she was being beckoned back to a quieter life in Maine.

This week we are joined by writer and homesteader Kirsten Lie-Nielsen of Hostile Valley Living. Kirsten and her partner Patrick spent years restoring a 200 year-old  farm that had been abandoned for 20 years. Since moving, Kirsten has written two books on homesteading. In our conversation, she discusses why she chose to raise pigs, geese, and goats, why Maine is a great state for homesteaders, and the creative ways she is piecing together a living working almost entirely off of her small farm.

urbanexodus.com
instagram.com/theurbanexodus
facebook.com/theurbanexodus

Transcript

Alissa Hessler: 0:00

Way back before the pandemic began, I had a question. What does it take for a city person to go country in 2015, I set out to explore through photography, writing. And now this podcast in February, I recorded most of the interviews for the first season. I plan to launch in April of 2020, the five year anniversary of the project, but then everything turned upside down. And it just didn't feel like the right time to launch because so much had changed overnight. As the initial shock of the pandemic wore off, it became clear that many people with the means to do so we're leaving cities in droves. Recent data has shown that nearly 16 million people have relocated in the US this year, making the concept of an urban Exodus even more relevant. So while some of the interviews in the season were conducted before the pandemic, the topics they discuss the questions they raise, and the answers they provide are more urgent than ever. I'm Alissa Hessler, welcome to the urban Exodus is it even possible in our age of convenience to give it all up and work towards living off the land, a child of original back to the landers, Kiersten Lee Nelson was raised on a homestead in Maine. But like any rebellious teenager, she yearned for the bright lights and excitement of the city. Yet once she got there, she realized quickly that she was being beckoned back to a quieter life. Kiersten and her partner Patrick spent years restoring a 200 year old farm that had been abandoned for 20 years. Since moving, Kiersten has written two books on homesteading. In our conversation, she discusses why she chose to raise pigs, geese and goats. Why Maine is a great state for homesteaders. And the creative way she's piecing together a living working almost entirely off of her small farm.

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 2:08

The first 10 years of my life, I grew up in union, Maine, which is actually really close to where we live now and is very rural. And we moved to a slightly bigger town when I was 10. But my entire youth, all I could think about was how I was going to go to the big city. And I wanted to go to Hollywood. And it was like just escaping Maine was a big theme of my youth. But my parents convinced me to stay in New England for college instead of like actually going to California. But I did go to college, I went to Bennington in Vermont, which is a very small rural college, but all my friends were like from New York City and stuff. So we go there on the weekend or on breaks. And you know, I had a little bit of exposure to what cities were actually like, and pretty much immediately I was like, No, I want to go home. The first thing that sort of drew me back was I didn't want to be close to the ocean. I didn't realize how much I missed that when I was in Vermont.

Alissa Hessler: 3:05

How have you been navigating this really challenging year, you know, our

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 3:09

day to day routines have stayed fairly similar. And we prior to this often would spend many days in a row at home, you know, working on farm projects and stuff. So we still also have, you know, plenty of food leftover from our garden last year and that kind of thing. So the day to day rhythm of things remains largely the same. But it's a completely different, you know, mentality to it. First of all, the simple aspect of choosing to stay home all day versus having two is very different on your brain. And then like the sort of background stress levels, and yeah, just anxiety and fear and not knowing what's going to happen next on several different fronts. So while our rhythms are largely the same, our minds are not because you

Alissa Hessler: 4:03

and your partner grew up in Maine, you would have a really good grasp overall of what those changes have been like in this environment. Can you talk about what your childhood in Maine was? Like? Were your parents back to the landers? Or was this a conscious lifestyle shift for you?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 4:17

Both my parents were originally back to the landers. My mom moved to Maine from actually Missouri and she moved way up to northern Maine. With her first husband, she lived in a log cabin with a dirt floor in the middle of the woods. And my father grew up in Maine, he lived in New York City for a while and then he moved back and also he had like a little self sufficient farm he grew blueberries was actually his sort of primary income for a long time and he had like a horse powered sheep and blueberry farm. So they both had that experience. But they both that was previous marriages for both of them so they both Um, you know, after they met and had me had kind of left that lifestyle. And even through my childhood, it was this sort of interesting combination of I was definitely raised to appreciate where food came from, we usually had, you know, a significant garden going. We did raise chickens for a while. And bees as well for a little while, and I was a kid. So we had a lot of that sort of philosophy and appreciation for, for where food came from and for the land. But also, my parents both definitely, like really appreciated not being actually out in the middle of the countryside anymore.

Alissa Hessler: 5:41

When did you both decide to make this move? And how did you find this farm where you live now.

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 5:49

So I remember like one of the first like dates that we went on was actually open Creamery day, which is a event here in Maine where, you know, you can drive around and various dairy farms are sort of open to the public. And we like we talked about goats, then we talked about having a dairy then. So it was definitely kind of on our mind. Right from the beginning, it was something that just interested both of us, we both really liked animals, we both really liked the idea of sort of making our own food, but it was kind of, you know, just a dream, sort of put it on the back burner. And then as we started actually doing more of those kind of things, and in particular, when we added we got a couple of geese, then it started becoming obvious that we needed more land and that we sort of didn't fit in, in the spot that we were we were living in. And we talked about different, you know, crops we could grow and things we could do to have a farm that would, you know, make it also affordable. Over probably about three years, we looked on and off at property and we would I know we use like the Maine Farmland Trust website a lot. And we used a couple other reality websites to see if anywhere with a lot of land came up. Our main requirements looking were we knew we wanted something that had privacy. So we were looking for something in a rural location, preferably with a fair amount of acreage. And we knew that we had animals. So we wanted some kind of if not a bar, and then a good outbuilding something we could at least put our animals in initially, and we'd be out we just sort of looked off and on. And, you know, nothing really came out. But we weren't really desperate. And then when my husband first saw this property, and he did a drive by, and he called me immediately and it was like we found the place. And it was it was pretty much immediately clear, we put an offer on it right away. Because it does, it has the land that we were looking for. It's 93 acres. So that was a huge, huge check off our list. And it also while the house was in really rough shape, the barn was in pretty good shape. And it's a huge beautiful, like Yankee style. Barns was very, you know, New England traditional. And we knew we couldn't build anything like that for like the price of the whole property. So the barn was a big selling point for us.

Alissa Hessler: 8:20

In Maine, you have such extreme climates. Why do you think this has become a mecca for homesteading? Do you think it's just access to land? Or are there other characteristics that drive people here?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 8:31

Yeah, and I think that's a great question. It's certainly one that I have considered, especially, you know, when it's cold and icy and all that out, and I am like, why am I doing this here? Um, I think the cost and availability of land is a big draw. And it's especially a big draw initially, like if you're searching, it's like, oh, this, you know, this is actually affordable. But I actually think, and I'm saying this in February, so there must be some truth to it. But I think that the seasonality is, in some ways a pro it gives you a time to decompress. I can't imagine if I was doing this in, you know, like a more temperate place and I actually was keeping the garden going year round, like I love my garden spending time in it is amazing. But I also love that there's a time of year when I can't do that. And I have to sort of slow down a little bit. So that is actually there. They're definitely you know, positive elements to the fact that there is a forced rest period here in May.

Unknown: 9:38

This episode is brought to you by Hessler creative workshops a creative photography duo offering both virtual and destination workshops. Join the creative connection course running January 8 through 29th. Creative connection meets once a week for group critiques paired with lectures and assignments designed to inspire experimentation and expand your artists. I learn more and see our full list of virtual and destination workshops at Hessler creative.com.

Alissa Hessler: 10:12

How many animals do you currently have on your homestead now? And what do you think? What for you what's an a manageable vision for the animals that you have?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 10:23

At the moment, we have 13 Goats, to pigs of flock of geese, I think there's 18. Right now, we have a few chickens and a flock of guinea fowl, there's about 15 of those, and eight, I think ducks. And then we have a livestock Guardian dog. And we have house cats. And I think the thing that makes it manageable is really like the infrastructure that you have for the animals. So for example, the pigs are hugely self sufficient, you know, they need to be fed once or twice a day. And they need they need water all the time, of course, but they don't like they don't require a whole lot else in terms of our interacting with them, as long as we have the infrastructure for them. So like with the pigs, that really comes down to the fencing, you don't have to worry about the pigs all day, as long as they've got a good fence. But if you have a weak fence, then they're almost certainly going to go through it, and then you're going to have to worry about them for hours while you're trying to wrangle them back in. So for us, building the infrastructure that really meets the needs of each animal makes a huge difference in how easy it is for us to care for the animals we have. And whether or not we would add to our existing set of animals. I mean, the goats are another good example where, first of all, without a good fence, they would escape. Just having a shelter space that's big enough for them is the difference between my having to like clean out their stalls every day just to keep up versus being able to do more of like a deep litter method with them, which saves time. So having the infrastructure helps you to create just a really reliable routine. And then having that routine every day makes it less disruptive to like your daily life is just the one thing that you have to do every day like making a cup of coffee, you go do the chores, and then you come back at the same time. And it's just routine, versus chasing things around and everything being a little bit anarchical. With escaping animals and that kind of thing. We did definitely have a bit of that this summer,

Alissa Hessler: 12:40

you might be somewhat of an anomaly in the homesteading animal husbandry community, and that you don't use any of the animals that you raise for meat. Can you talk a little bit about your choice to keep your operation vegetarian while not being a vegetarian yourself?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 12:53

Yes, I actually I love this question. I don't feel like I don't talk about this too much. Because I think in terms of that choice, part of it is like I don't want to come across as hugely self righteous, or, you know, on some sort of crusade, I have a lot of people that I know and friends that raise animals for me, and I have tremendous respect for them. And we eat a lot less meat now. Which is, you know, if we're going to be self sufficient, and therefore, like grow all our own food, and we're not raising animals for meat, then obviously meats going to become less of a part of our diet, I'm still don't have a problem with getting you know, if a friend of ours butchers an animal and we you know, work out a trade or something for, you know, half half a pig or something like that. I think that's okay, because I know that that animal was ethically raised that I know where it was raised. But for us, it's really just been a case of every animal as we've gotten to know them has been more intelligent, more kind, more trusting than we really expected.

Alissa Hessler: 14:06

What advice would you have to someone looking to get into animal husbandry? How should one choose the best animals for them? And what are some considerations that should be carefully taken into account?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 14:17

People like to say that chickens are a gateway animal. And I think that's good advice. Start with some chickens. Don't just sort of jump into raising a bunch of animals right off the bat, because in particular gets overwhelming. And there's also just so much to learn, sort of, we've kind of added we've reached a point where we probably aren't adding any new types of animals here. Maybe we might, but our plan is not to add any more types of animals. But when we were adding animals, it was kind of year by year, you know, add geese and then add goats and then last year, we added the pigs and that just gives you the opportunity to really focus and learn about each one you know, and how after enough time and be able to focus on them. Certainly you have to take into account hugely, where you live, what you can offer them in terms of shelter and pasture and things like that. You wouldn't want to keep pigs for on like a little. Well, there are some, like small breeds of pigs maybe but generally wouldn't want to keep pigs on like an urban homestead because they turn everything over and then they're bored, and they break out and turn your neighbor's lawn over.

Alissa Hessler: 15:30

What do you love about geese? What are your favorite breeds? And, and why did you start raising them?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 15:37

Yeah, when I was a kid, I had a friend who had geese. And I remember just being very intrigued by them even then. And I think that what intrigued me at that point was they seemed very scary. They never like bit me or chase me or anything, but they always seemed like they were about to. And yet my friend was not scared of them at all. Yes. But my friend wasn't, wasn't scared of him at all. And that just was kind of interesting to me that there would be an animal that would be like, so protective, and you know, feisty and all that and then around the people that they knew they were just like snuggly. So I was very intrigued by that as a kid. And then when we got chickens eight years ago or something, seven or eight years ago, my husband son asked if we could get a couple geese as well. And I honestly don't know what inspired him to ask for that. But I immediately thought of like my childhood experience with geese. And I was like, Yeah, it'd be cool. I'd like to like to have a couple geese. So we got some geese. And I didn't know about imprinting really at that time. But when we brought home this pair of Gosling's, they imprinted on us, which meant that they saw us as their parents, and they would just follow us around and honk at us and they were like little puppy dogs just running around after us. And now of course, we have, I think 18 geese in our flock right now. And kind of one of everything in terms of breeds. But in particular, you asked what my favorite breeds were, and I always look at Roman tufted geese which are they're a slightly smaller breed, they're very curious. And in my experience, they're the easiest breed to have imprint on you. They're just really, really curious and personable birds.

Unknown: 17:34

This season of the urban Exodus podcast is brought to you by Jake dot art. Bring the beauty of the outdoors in search their collection of affordable high quality fine art prints by color or theme to find just the right work for your home or office. Whether you need a visual escape into the beauty of the natural world while stuck indoors, or want to send a thoughtful gift over the holidays, Jake dot art that's jak e dot A RT has you covered.

Alissa Hessler: 18:09

You have written a couple of books now. And most of them focus kind of on this. Well, one book is how to be a modern homesteader. Um, you've written numerous articles and participated in public speaking engagements on the topic. Can you speak a little bit about what it means to be a modern homesteader?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 18:29

Yeah, I think that what makes you a modern homesteader versus, you know, maybe more of a back to the land person or someone, you know, sort of a reenactor almost. But what makes you a modern homesteader is the willingness to incorporate modern technological advances with a homesteading lifestyle. So whether it is the willingness to use social media as a marketing tool, or like, one of the things that my husband Patrick's all excited about is like using drones to keep an eye on crops, things like that, that, you know, obviously, you wouldn't have access to 50 or 100 years ago, but can definitely inform how you farm your lands. Even if it's just like willingness to use the internet to find you know, that obscure milking tool that you need and you know, order it online. You know, not completely cutting yourself off from modern society still participating in it still using it while trying to do as much as you can to provide for yourself with with your, your homestead. And it might seem to be a little contradictory because one of the cornerstones I think of homesteading is a goal of self sufficiency. But I also like to think that self sufficiency doesn't have to mean by only ever made everything for myself, it's more of a knowledge and a confidence that I can make everything for myself. And I'm making choices for what works best for me in terms of what I am making versus what I'm bringing in, and sort of like informed decisions, and how you're providing for yourself.

Alissa Hessler: 20:20

So Instagram is a tool that a lot of homesteaders and farmers use to help share their lives and build community. How has your Instagram community helped you in this journey?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 20:30

It's been really interesting. And definitely there are pros and cons to the Instagram community. It's definitely been like you are connected to a wide range of people all around the country who are doing similar things to you. Whereas if you were limited to just, you know, the farms within reaching reachable distance, you might not find you might not even find other farms at all. So it connects you to like minded people that you might not otherwise find. And that's a big, it's a support network just in terms of like, you can you can relate to each other's problems in a way that you might not with just your regular friends that live in the city and have a nine to five job. But it's also like an information network of like, Oh, we're getting pigs, for example, we're getting pigs. But we've never had them before. Has anybody does anybody have any tips, and then you get tons of tips. So there's definitely a huge knowledge resource. But it's also like, take it with a grain of salt, because you don't know how deep anyone's knowledge really runs on the internet. And to begin with, I was using it just to share with friends and family. But I started having experiences that I felt other people could be educated from, especially like the geese were a big part of that was like, I just want to share what I've learned. So other people can have this experience as well. And I just really loved the people who genuinely would say like, this reminds me of my childhood on a farm, or I look at your page with my kids. And you know, they think your animals are so cute. So I have gone back to using Instagram a lot more. But I'm just focusing on what I think is important to me about it. And the sort of most genuine side of it for me, which is the sharing of you know, actual concrete information. And the sharing of like the lifestyle for the sake of like, you know, the kids or the people who it reminds them of their childhood, like sharing the joy of the lifestyle.

Alissa Hessler: 22:46

Do you have any advice you touched on this briefly in a really wonderful way, but of people wanting to leverage social media to build community and to create new opportunities for themselves.

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 22:58

So I think that's the toughest thing is just getting into it. And that's with any sort of like, because there is definitely a homesteader and a farmer community on Instagram. And the thing about a community is like, once it's established, it can be hard to break into. But in my experience, and I certainly tried to be this way myself when people messaged me with questions. And in my experience, the homesteaders and farmers on Instagram largely are super responsive to being asked questions, and things like that. If so, my recommendation would be to just if you're on social media, there are certain hashtags you can look up and that kind of thing to sort of get an idea of the people who already exist in the homesteading community and go ahead and send them a message, ask them questions about Instagram and their experiences or about whatever's going on on your farm or homestead that you you know, have a question about?

Alissa Hessler: 23:56

Have you noticed a shift with more and more young people learning to grow their own food or stay in small towns or move from cities to more rural areas? And if yes, what do you think is causing that shift?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 24:09

I would say yes. It's surprises me just how many people just in my immediate vicinity are like young couples that are moving. Usually from out of state and certainly from more urban areas. It really seems to be definitely like a growing community. And I think that there is, you know, some disillusionment with sort of like the rat race and that kind of thing. Like one of the most satisfying things about growing a garden is then you put all that work into it and then you can hold the vegetable in your hand and then turn it into dinner. So like that satisfaction of really seeing the fruits of the literal fruits of your labor. I think that's missing a lot from modern life and I think that drives people a lot of the time. And there's also just in certainly my generation, a real awareness of, you know, the issues of growing enough food for the world. And, and the issue of climate change and all these things that are sort of pressing down on us and being able to take some small actual, like concrete steps in your own life. I think that's, that's huge for a lot of people.

Alissa Hessler: 25:28

What would be your advice to someone considering a shift to a more rural setting, advice for places to go advice for how to make a living, general things that they should prepare themselves for before making a leap?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 25:43

One of the things I know that people always say to me about the animals that we raised, I think it'd be true. Even if we were like, more of a vegetable, vegetable gardener, that kind of thing. But certainly with animals, it's like, oh, well, you can't go on vacation, can you? And for me, that is like, that's not a downside. I'm very happy to be home. But you have to be aware of that, if that's what like, I like I like being home. So I'm cool with that. But if you are somebody who likes to travel all the time, you might not want to get like a herd of goats. So being aware of like, what kind of a, you know, time commitments, your lifestyle is going to be? You know, that's, that's a really big, big thing.

Alissa Hessler: 26:31

What advice would you give to someone who wants to make a shift to a rural area, but they're worried about career and the sustainability of that life?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 26:38

Well, if you're trying exclusively to make a living off of your farm, that's definitely going to be a challenge. And I really wouldn't recommend doing that as your primary, like, I'm going to dive right into it, and my farm is going to generate income right off the bat that I don't think usually works out well. So I would make sure you have a career, something that can bring you some income in place, when you make that move. So you know, in my case, part of why we looked at land where we did is I have a job that's near here, so we weren't going to move out of range of my commute. If you have a job that allows you to work remotely or something that's obviously you know, that's fantastic. But I wouldn't count on being able to make a living from your farm, whether it's your animals or crops or a farm standard, something I wouldn't count on that out of the gate by any means. And I said a little bit about, you know, you aren't able to take a vacation and that kind of thing. In a larger sense, like, you're not able to up and leave for a week or two, but it's also just it is a kind of a lonely lifestyle. And, again, that's something that for me was part of the choice, I like solitude. But if you're really a social butterfly, you have to be aware that it's not going to be you have to, you know, cultivate your own social circles, or know that like in order to participate in, you know, social events, it's going to be a half hour drive.

Alissa Hessler: 28:13

So on that note, what is community looked like for you since moving to the country? Has it changed? What what are some of the aspects of making friends and interacting with your neighbors that you feel are unique to living in a rural area?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 28:27

Yeah, I think those it's interesting, like a, in a more urban area, like we used to live in, you could have a bunch of neighbors that you could see from your front door, but you didn't really ever talk to them, or, you know, just wave hello, didn't really know who they were. And in a more rural setting, you might not be able to see your neighbors at all. And you might not interact with them a huge amount. But like when you do it's like it's much more of a support network. It's kind of like we're all in this together. kind of thing where if somebody has got, you know, like, you know, broken down machinery or, you know, needs help people do sort of bond together to help them because they know what it's like to live out here and to, you know, need that sort of support system. So I think that's like a totally different aspect of community in rural versus urban living.

Alissa Hessler: 29:26

Looking forward the next 10 years. What do you hope your farm looks like how your lives function?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 29:33

Well, we do want to we're starting this year with putting in some trees and we do want to start focusing on orchards, fruit trees. I've been talking with like friends and family recently about like the past four years have really been about restoring this farm and bringing it back to a certain point. It's been very much focused on the rebuild. And going forward like the next four or five years are very much like Turning it into, you know, our vision like is actually growing the farm instead of just rebuilding it bringing it back. So we really do want to focus on on growth and infrastructure in that way for the next four or five years, and then hopefully, on from there seeing it actually, you know, become something that can provide us with a living, that would be obviously fantastic as well.

Alissa Hessler: 30:26

I know that it's speculative. But I think right now it's really important to look to the future and think about what lessons we should take from 2020. What positive changes do you hope come from the last year?

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 30:38

A good outcome is people I think, with a greater understanding of, I mean, where food comes from is a pretty broad way of putting it but a greater understanding of how to kind of care for themselves. A lot of sort of traumatic events in life can can bring this to the forefront and this is kind of like a global, traumatic event that's bringing it to the forefront of like, yeah, what is important, what do you want to spend your time doing? Yeah, it's Yeah, I think it's it's a it's a good thing for us all to think about. I wish we weren't thinking about it under these conditions.

Alissa Hessler: 31:17

My interviews with Kiersten were recorded in February and March of 2020. She sent me this brief audio postcard to give us an update on how they have been weathering things.

Kirsten Lie-Nielson: 31:27

Fortunately, we are set up in a way that socially isolating and staying home are kind of just what we do anyways. So from a day to day perspective, our summer was not too unusual, except that we had a bit of extra time, which was an amazing benefit for finishing a bunch of projects. We are looking forward to 2021 I have no doubt it will bring its own unique challenges, but we are looking forward to some good times as well.

Alissa Hessler: 32:00

That was Kiersten Lee Nelson, from our hostile Valley living homestead in Liberty, Maine. To read more about Kiersten and see pictures of her farm, visit urban Exodus calm. You can find her at hostile Valley living.com or on social media at hostile Valley living. Join me next week for my conversation with Hannah Crabtree and Jesse frost who run rough draft farmstead an organic farm in Lawrenceburg, Kentucky. When I first met them back in 2015. They had recently moved from New York City and Chicago respectively. And we're living in an off grid cabin that they had built themselves through a crowdfunding campaign for only$5,000. Since then, they have relocated and built a thriving local farm business and become a leading voice experimenter and educator in the no till grower movement. You can find us on Instagram and Facebook at the Urban Exodus. To read more in depth features on folks who ditch the city and when country visit our website urban exodus.com urban Exodus is an enormous labor of love. If you appreciate the content we create, please consider supporting our efforts on Patreon. If you are a small business who would like to sponsor an episode, please visit the podcast page on our website to learn more. An enormous thank you to my team who made this podcast possible production by Simone Leon editing by Ari Snyder and music by Benjamin Biotherm. I'm Alissa Hessler and this is the urban Exodus. Stay kind, stay joyful, stay resilient